gabriel and michael

Rigel · Status: Faith: Joined: Aug 17, 2007 Posts: 110

BMZ;
I do not and we should not. The reason is in verse, "Walaa taqfo ma laisa laka bayhe ilm", meaning "Don't guess about what you have no knowledge." In Urdu or Hindi, the exact meaning is "Tuk-kah mat maaro" and I hope Rigel will understand this.

Salam AB, THE & BMZ,

Thankyou brothers for brining the argument to an end. And as brother BMZ has translated "Walaa taqfo ma laisa laka bayhe ilm" - 'Tuka mat maroo'. It really fits well brother THE, you brought a discussion which you yourself were not sure about, neither you had any evidence. Sorry brother THE but this time you sounded like firon-minds, who just rejects history and hates suni/shia.

Letme tell you muslims are more hindu, more chirstian, more jew, than suni/shia thingy you mentioned, we share more culture and false beliefs than you can imagine, so why bash poor common people who are very illitrate and most of whom can hardly feed their families two times a day. One should consider ground realities instead of labeling whitehouse style.

THE
# but isn't there a question...where to draw the line? (-:

Brother the line was there where you started this topic Smile

I personally think this Jebril issue was wastage of time, since nothing new or concrete, neither I guess it matters to us today. Thankyou anyway brother because theres always something to learn from these discussions.

Okeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey guess thats enough, lets goto arcade and shoot some ET, else you will shoot me Wink

Just like brother AB says, Cheers!!!!!!

**AhmedBahgat**

The

The

**AhmedBahgat**

Salam brother The and all,

As I stated earlier, I have one comment to make, firstly I agree that Jibreel has the following 3 titles:

1) Al Ruh Al Ameen (a definite noun with an Al + adjective with an Al)
2) Ruh Al Qudus (a Muddaf without an Al + Muddaf Ilaih with an Al)
3) Al Ruh

The first two titles are two words each, yet the first two titles are totally different structure regarding grammar, bear in mind that Al Qudus in the second title actually means Allah, i.e. Ruh Al Qudus means Ruh of Allah, the first title however means the honest Ruh, the last one is one word only

I left the word Ruh above untranslated, this is because the word Ruh has two meanings in Arabic and I donÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?Â¢??t think any of these meaning apply to any of the above 3 titles:

A) Wahi (inspiration or revelation)
B) Soul

I will only discuss the first meaning as this is what is associated to the message sent to the prophets

A) An example to the first meaning of Ruh is clearly seen in the following examples:

He sends down the angels with the inspiration by His commandment on whom He pleases of His servants, saying: Give the warning that there is no god but Me, therefore be careful (of your duty) to Me.
[The Quran ; 16:2]

يُنَزِّلُ الْمَلآئِكَةَ بِالْرُّوحِ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ عَلَى مَن يَشَاء مِنْ عِبَادِهِ أَنْ أَنذِرُواْ أَنَّهُ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ أَنَاْ فَاتَّقُونِ (2)

-> See, يُنَزِّلُ الْمَلآئِكَةَ بِالْرُّوحِ , Yunazzal Al Malaika Bi Al Ruh, which means: He sends down the angels with the inspiration , in fact Allah elaborated to what Al Ruh is at the end of the verse, Give the warning that there is no god but Me, i.e. the prophets has been inspired by Allah to warn other humans that there is no God but Him, now what carried such inspiration to the humans are the angels as seen from the start of the verse: يُنَزِّلُ الْمَلآئِكَةَ بِالْرُّوحِ , Yunazzal Al Malaika Bi Al Ruh, which means: He sends down the angels with the inspiration , i.e. for Mohammed or any other prophet for that matter, all must have received the revelations via ANGELS according to 16:2, now if it is thought under Iman that Jibreel was the name of such creature who carried the inspiration to Mohammed then Jibreel must be an angel according to 16:2

Another example for the word Al Ruh to mean (The inspiration or the Revelation) is this:

Possessor of the highest rank, Lord of power: He makes the inspiration to light by His command upon whom He pleases of His servants, that he may warn (men) of the day of meeting.
[The Quran ; 40:15]

رَفِيعُ الدَّرَجَاتِ ذُو الْعَرْشِ يُلْقِي الرُّوحَ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ عَلَى مَن يَشَاء مِنْ عِبَادِهِ لِيُنذِرَ يَوْمَ التَّلَاقِ (15)

-> See, يُلْقِي الرُّوحَ , Yulqi Al Ruh, which roughly means: He makes the inspiration to lit, literally it means, He drops the inspiration, and again Allah elaborated to what is the inspiration, at the end of the verse: that he (any messenger) may warn (men) of the day of meeting., that Ruh (inspiration to warn other humans is carried by the Angels as we learnt from 16:2)

Now, if the ones who carry such inspiration from Allah are angels according to 16:2 then the following verse indicate that Al Ruh Al Ameen (As a title) is one of those angels:

193: Al Ruh Al Ameen has descended with it,

194: Upon your heart that you may be of the warners
[The Quran ; 26:193-194]

نَزَلَ بِهِ الرُّوحُ الْأَمِينُ (193)
عَلَى قَلْبِكَ لِتَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُنذِرِينَ (194)

-> Note that I left the words: الرُّوحُ الْأَمِينُ , Al Ruh Al Ameen untranslated, to highlight that in this verse it has to be the title for the entity that carried the inspiration down., can you see the link of the verb Na Za La, comes down between 16:2 and 26:193, from these two verses, Al Ruh Al Ameen must be an angel who carried the message down to the human prophet, can you also see the other link of the verb Na Za Ra, to warn between 26:194 and both 16:2 & 40:15.

Now, the following verse must confirm that Jebril is Al Ruh Al Ameen if compared with 16:193-194 above:

Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely He sent him down to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.
[The Quran ; 2:97]

قُلْ مَن كَانَ عَدُوًّا لِّجِبْرِيلَ فَإِنَّهُ نَزَّلَهُ عَلَى قَلْبِكَ بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ مُصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ وَهُدًى وَبُشْرَى لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ (97)

-> See: فَإِنَّهُ نَزَّلَهُ عَلَى قَلْبِكَ , Fainnahu Nazzalahu Ala Qalbika, i.e. for surely He sent him (Jibreel) down to your heart, compare this with 26:193-194. Al Ruh Al Ameen has descended with it, Upon your heart that you may be of the warners, now consider 16:2 He sends down the angels with the inspiration , we have to conclude the following:

1) Jibreel is Al Ruh Al Ameen who carried the inspiration to Mohammed heart
2) Jibreel must be an angel

There is actually an alleged reason of revelation to 2:97, apparently the Jews went to Mohammed and told him that there is no prophet but whom Allah must send Angels to, so they asked him who was the angel sent to him, when he replied to them by saying: Jibreel, they were not happy and claimed that Jibreel is always sent by Allah to cause wars and killings, so they claimed that he (Jibreel) is their enemy and that is why 2:97 starts with: Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely He sent him down to your heart by Allah's command,, the Jews also told Mohammed that if it was angel Michael that was sent to him, they would have followed Mohammed because Michael is always sent with mercy, that is why you read in the next verse:

Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His messengers and Jibreel and Michael, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.
[The Quran ; 2:98]

مَن كَانَ عَدُوًّا لِّلّهِ وَمَلآئِكَتِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَجِبْرِيلَ وَمِيكَالَ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ عَدُوٌّ لِّلْكَافِرِينَ (98)

-> See how both Jibreel and Michael are mentioned explicitly in this verse: Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His messengers and Jibreel and Michael, I believe the reason for that is to give those who boast about Michael and degrade Jibreel a lesson that both should be respected the same by us.

What you should know also that Ahl Al Kitab tradition gives the archangel Michael four tasks:

1) To fight against Satan.

2) To rescue the souls of the faithful from the power of the enemy, especially at the hour of death.

3) To be the champion of God's people, the Jews in the Old Law, the Christians in the New Testament; therefore he was the patron of the Church, and of the orders of knights during the Middle Ages.

4) To call away from earth and bring men's souls to judgment.

Jibreel is, in contrary with his name, the angel of the Power of God, and it is worth while noting the frequency with which such words as "great", "might", "power", and "strength" occur in the passages referred to Jibreel. The Jews indeed seem to have dwelt particularly upon this feature in Jibreel 's character, and he is regarded by them as the angel of judgment, while Michael is called the angel of mercy. They attribute to Jibreel the destruction of Sodom and of the host of Sennacherib, they also regard him as the angel who buried Moses, and as the man deputed to mark the figure Tau on the foreheads of the elect.

That is why the Jews preferred that Michael to be the angel sent to Mohammed instead of Jibreel. Jibreel is one of only two angels named in the Bible. His name means strong man of God or God is my strength as explained above. He appeared by name four times: twice to Daniel to interpret the meaning of his visions:

In Daniel 8, Jibreel explains the vision of the horned ram as portending the destruction of the Persian Empire by the Macedonian Alexander the Great, after whose death the kingdom will be divided up among his generals, from one of whom will spring Antiochus Epiphanes:

15: And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16: And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
[Daniel ; 8:15-16]

In Daniel 9, after Daniel had prayed for Israel, we read:

21: Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22: And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23: At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25: Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

[Daniel ; 9:21-27]
-> See, how the above is qualified by the Quran regarding sending the angels carrying inspiration to whomever Allah wills from the humans:

He sends down the angels with the inspiration by His commandment on whom He pleases of His servants, saying: Give the warning that there is no god but Me, therefore be careful (of your duty) to Me.
[The Quran ; 16:2]

يُنَزِّلُ الْمَلآئِكَةَ بِالْرُّوحِ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ عَلَى مَن يَشَاء مِنْ عِبَادِهِ أَنْ أَنذِرُواْ أَنَّهُ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ أَنَاْ فَاتَّقُونِ (2)

Jibreel was also mentioned once to announce John the Baptist's birth to his father Zacharias:

11: And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
12: And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
13: But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14: And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15: For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16: And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17: And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
18: And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
19: And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
20: And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.
[Luke 1:11-20]
-> Again, the above Bible story is qualified by the Quran:

Then the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: That Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a Word from Allah, and honorable and chaste and a prophet from among the good ones.
[The Quran ; 3:39]

فَنَادَتْهُ الْمَلآئِكَةُ وَهُوَ قَائِمٌ يُصَلِّي فِي الْمِحْرَابِ أَنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكَ بِيَحْيَى مُصَدِّقًا بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنَ اللّهِ وَسَيِّدًا وَحَصُورًا وَنَبِيًّا مِّنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (39)

Jibreel is mentioned for the last time in the Bible to announce the birth of Jesus to Mary:

26: And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27: To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28: And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29: And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30: And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31: And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32: He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34: Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35: And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36: And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37: For with God nothing shall be impossible.
38: And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
[Luke 1:26-38]
-> And again the same story is qualified by the Quran:

When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
[The Quran ; 3:45]

إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ (45)

From all the above compelling Bible and Quran evidences, there is no doubt that Jibreel is an angel who is sent carrying the inspiration to whomever Allah wishes from the humans

One point I would like to reply to, brother The claimed the following: # if u say god has sent angels as rasool to humankind, then it is perhaps contradicting 17:95!

Let me bring 17:94-95 to explain what brother The missed:

94: And nothing prevented people from believing when the guidance came to them except that they said: What! has Allah raised up a mortal to be a messenger?

95: Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger.
[The Quran ; 17:94-95]

وَمَا مَنَعَ النَّاسَ أَن يُؤْمِنُواْ إِذْ جَاءهُمُ الْهُدَى إِلاَّ أَن قَالُواْ أَبَعَثَ اللّهُ بَشَرًا رَّسُولاً (94)
قُل لَّوْ كَانَ فِي الأَرْضِ مَلآئِكَةٌ يَمْشُونَ مُطْمَئِنِّينَ لَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ السَّمَاء مَلَكًا رَّسُولاً (95)

-> I believe what brother missed is verse 17:94 which clearly says that the people rejected to believe because a human messenger was sent to them: And nothing prevented people from believing when the guidance came to them except that they said: What! has Allah raised up a mortal to be a messenger?, now for Mohammed to refute such claim, Allah ordered him to say: Say: Had there been in the earth angels walking about as settlers, We would certainly have sent down to them from the heaven an angel as a messenger., i.e. IF THERE HAS BEEN ANGELS ON EARTH WHO ARE REQUIRED TO BELIEVE VIA SUCH TEST THAT IS ENFORCED ON THE HUMANS THEN AN ANGEL MESSNGER WILL BE SENT TO THEM, 17:95 is no way denying that Allah sends Angels to the human messengers, because 16:2 told us that Allah uses the angels to carry His inspirations to the humans whom He chose to be messengers to the rest of humans

Finally, I will leave you with some conjectures regarding the angels:

The Angels
Angels were created as messengers of God. The current Injeel reveals that God created nine orders of angels:

Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominations, Principalities, Powers, Virtues, Archangels, and Angels.

Out of this order come the familiar seven Archangels which include: Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Sariel, and the fallen Lucifer.

The Eighth Choir - The Archangels, The seven angels that stood before God in Revelations are considered to be the Archangels. Although it is agreed that there were seven Archangels, there has been some debate on who the seven were. Most accounts name, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, the remaining three are generally chosen from Metatron, Remiel, Sariel, Anael, Raguel and Raziel. The Archangels were the divine messengers between the humans and God. Of the nine choirs the Archangels are probably best known to us. They are the battlers of the Sons of Darkness.

Lucifer, whose ambitions were a distortion of God's plan, is known to us through the various religious teachings as the fallen angel, with the use of many names, among which are Iblis, Satan, Belial, Beelzebub, Shaitan and the Devil. This does not contradict the Quran in anyway because it seems Iblis as a Jinn was given the rank of an angel, that is why he was up there when Allah ordered the angels to prostrate to Adam and he failed to do so because he was from among the Jinn.

Historical and Literary References: Gabriel's Name means "Hero of God." Angel of Revelation and Chief Ambassador to humanity. Apart from Michael, Gabriel is the only other Angel mentioned by Name in the Old Testament. He was said to sit on the left hand side of God. In many religious, writings Gabriel has appeared as a messenger and deliverer to humanity of blessed events. Mohammed claimed that it was Gabriel (Jibreel in Islamic) who dictated to him the Koran. In Christian beliefs, Gabriel was the Angel who appeared to Mary to inform her that she would conceive and give birth to Jesus. In addition, Gabriel also appeared before Zacharias to announce that his son will be called John (the Baptist).

Salam all

The

**AhmedBahgat**

The

fluxion24 · Status: Faith: Joined: Jan 05, 2008 Posts: 1

The said

The